I’m reaching into the Wayback Machine for this one – a quarter-century ago when I was a budding historian.
The first non-fiction book I researched was never completely written, but I have considered returning to the topic at some point. The subject was William Tudor Gardiner, Governor of Maine (1929-33) who as a colonel in the US Army Air Corps during World War II was Director of Intelligence for the Eighth Air Force and with General Maxwell Taylor went behind enemy lines in Rome to meet with Marshall Badoglio. There is much more about him – Groton classmate of the Roosevelts, the Harvard football star, the scion of one of New England’s most prestigious families, the then-youngest Speaker of the Maine House. I came to know his last living child, Peggy, an incredible person in her own right who after serving in WW2 became a horse breeder. In the mid-1990s there were still people who remembered Tudor Gardiner who died in a plane crash in 1953. One of those was the soldier who briefly served as his driver during Operation Torch in North Africa, Abe Weissbrodt.
That was all I knew about Weissbrodt when he kindly agreed to an interview. Internet service was still in its early years, so I had little information about him. All I knew is that he was retired and lived in Annapolis. Twenty-five years ago this month, I drove to his home on the water overlooking the Magothy River in Annapolis. There we sat outside drinking iced tea for two hours. This WW2 soldier had seen more history than I realized, especially during the war years. We chatted about his time with Gardiner, bumping into Patton on the beach, meeting Doolittle, interviewing IG Farben industrialists before Nuremberg, and as a lawyer winning cases for Native American tribes.
What follows is the recorded portion of the interview, for which I only expected a few quotes about Gardiner. I learned much more. Everyone has a story. This is his.
This is Claude Berube. It’s 16 October 1999 and I’m interviewing Mr. Abe Weissbrodt at his home in Annapolis, Maryland.
Mr. Weissbrodt, do I have your permission to tape record this interview?
Yes.
Do I have your permission to use quotes from the interview for a biography of William Tudor Gardiner?
Yes, you do.
Thank you. Mr. Weissbrodt, can you tell me your occupation and where your job has taken you over the years?
Now I’m an attorney and I’ve been an attorney for about fifty years and I started out as a government lawyer with the Treasury Department.
When was that?
That was before the war and the unit I was assigned to, its main function was to prevent the Germans from using the financial assets of the overrun countries for their own benefit. It was called Foreign Funds Control. Then I went into the Army and after three months I was sent overseas and I came into London and I was taken to Kew Gardens. I was a member of the 8th Air Force. Col. Gardiner was the Intelligence Officer of the 8th Air Force at the time.
After – I forget when it was – after the North African invasion I understand that Col. Gardiner went to see a Treasury Department mission and they were constituted as the North African Economic Board. They told me that he told them that he had this young lawyer and I was going to get him killed or killed myself and he was transferring me to the North African Economic Board. And they transferred me to the North African Economic Board and my boss there was the former Assistant General Counsel of the Treasury Department who was a colonel in the Army. On the economic side it had people from the Treasury Department and I - from there our purpose was to see that in North Africa that the North African Fleet was not transferred to the Germans
That was the French North African Fleet?
Yes.
One of my first jobs was to prepare work on a financial clause of the Clark-Darlan Agreement and this became one of the most humiliating experiences of my life because I was struggling on drafting a clause. They were negotiating with the French and my boss came back and threw a piece of paper on my desk and said, “why didn’t you think of this?” It was prepared by – he became dean of the Yale Law School and his brother was one of Johnson’s chief Vietnam advisors – I can’t remember his name [likely Eugene Rostow]. All it said was that the French agree not to engage in any financial or economic activities that were detrimental to the Allied accords and so I learned a little bit about drafting at that time.
Did they agree to it?
That’s an interesting story in and of itself. They agreed to it but the negotiations with the French took a very long time. They were having great difficulty trying to get the French to sign off on this Clark-Darlan Agreement.
Was Darlan the primary negotiator for the French?
Yes. One of my bosses came in and said “Well I think we’re all in agreement. I think they’re going to sign off. The next day he came in and I asked him “well, have they signed off?” He said “The French came in. They’re not signing. They objected to the last clauses of the agreement” which said that if there was any disagreement on language the English language would be used. They didn’t like that clause one bit, so it told you a little bit about negotiating with the French.
Was Darlan assassinated shortly thereafter?
I’m not sure. He could have been but I don’t remember.
This was in 1943?
The end of 1942. We went in on November 8, 1942 and I think early in 1943 I was transferred and that was when Gardiner went up to the French Rearmament Committee and I was very disappointed because I wanted to go with Gardiner. But for my future, this turned out to be a blessing. From then on I was assigned to this North African Economic Board and we went into Sicily and we went into Italy.
I was stationed in Sicily. I was working on economic activities again and then I went up to Naples and my boss then was transferred to set up for the military government of Germany. Dave Morse, who was running the Labor Department for the military government in Naples asked whether I could work with him until I was transferred to the German and he agreed. I don’t know how it happened but the man I was working under was a Captain Lee Williams and there was some concerns about the people running a very large plant called the (Carteginia Meridia). The claim was they were fascist and so I prepared a trial against these … and they were the only people indicted.
In the Italian Government?
In the entire history of what we were doing there, they were the only ones indicted. Because I was a sergeant they wouldn’t let me try the case but I assisted the trial lawyer. He did a great job. I was engaged in activities of that kind in Italy.
In September of 1944 I was told that I was eligible for rotation. I came home in September 1944 and I was stationed – first they sent me to take a course at Wright Field. I don’t remember what the course was about.
I think that’s Wright-Patterson now.
Yeah. I went up to Buffalo for a time. I didn’t know what I was doing. I came back and they sent me to 80 Broad Street and there was a wonderful Master Sergeant by the name of Bixby. He assigned me to take care of the mail and so when mail came in I would report it to the proper officer and I handled the mail. I had an easy job.
Where was 80 Broad Street? Was that in New York?
Yeah, in New York.
So you were near your family?
I came back to my wife. It was wonderful. I had no complaints about that. I was very anxious to do what I could. One day the Colonel – these were officers in the Air Force who would go out and examine what they were doing in plans and then write reports and so you had to follow-up on what they were doing. This man came dashing out of his office one day, this colonel whom I had never met and asked me if I had opened up this letter and I said “it was opened, I opened it.” It was confidential or something that was marked confidential. He said, “why’d you open it up?” I said, “well, they told me to open the mail. I didn’t know.” I guess it was marked Top Secret. I should have thought of it but I wasn’t reading the mail. Well he just reamed me out for opening up Top Secret mail. But Bixby told me not to worry, that they wouldn’t punish me.
Then I received a call. The call was from the Treasury Department. They said that Germany had been defeated and they wanted me to go back to Italy as a representative of the Treasury Department.
As a civilian?
As a civilian.
So they were going to recommend that you be discharged and go in service of Treasury.
Yes and they asked for my agreement. I agreed which caused a great deal of grief because I had impregnated my wife in the meantime. Then a letter came in “Top Secret” from the Treasury Department and I knew what was in it, so I brought it over to this colonel. He came out of his office and invited me into his office and wanted to know who I was and what I did. I told him I was a Treasury Department lawyer and had no influence whatsoever. It turned out that someone there was running a law school in Chicago – one of those private law schools that got in trouble with the Federal Trade Commission. They wanted to know if I could do anything to help them. I told him there was nothing I could do about this. I wouldn’t know where to start, I told them.
But anyway, in the meantime, Germany surrendered and they insisted I go to Germany.
In Germany we were investigating mainly the activities of IG Farben [which produced Zyklon B gas used in concentration camps]. They were the big chemical outfit in Germany and had many subsidiaries in the United States and in South America.
I was in charge of the interrogations of the Farben officials and it became clear to me that Farben had played an instrumental part in getting Hitler elected, if you want to call it that, and supported him…
By what means? Financially?
Financially and very much involved with the activities of the poison gas, the concentration activities and anything else that you could think of that was heinous they were involved in.
What year was this?
This was in 1945, shortly after Germany surrendered. I found that there was one man there … it strikes me that this has very little to do with the Gardiner work… there was one man there who I felt might be willing to talk and tell the truth. His name was von Schnitzler. George von Schnitzler. I guess he was a baron. So I concentrated on him. I came across a document which involved the takeover of France by the Germans. He was sent to Paris to arrange for Farben to take over the largest chemical plant in France. The document started off…I decided to make…the name will come to me…because it was so poignant to me… the leader of the French… that I decided to let him stew in his own juice. He had been trying to get in touch with me and it ended up with Farben taking over 51 percent of (Francoloeur), which was the name of the French chemical outfit.
So I put it on my desk face down. [von Schnitzler] asked, “what have you got there?” And I said, “it’s a letter.” He said, “what is it?” And I said, “Tell me what happened to Francoleur.” So he blanched and finally he told me what had happened. From then on it seemed to me that he opened up and was telling me what was happening, how they became a whole. The interrogations were about the activities of the Farben people were. Just about that time, Jackson’s group – Jackson was the Supreme Court Justice who was the Chief Prosecutor…
At Nurembourg?
At Nurembourg. He was trying to see whether they could indict one of the industrialists and they were concentrating on Krupp. I think that in Taylor’s book indicates that they abandoned that because Krupp was an old man, but they overlooked his son who was very active.
But in any event we received a visit from – he was one of the great circuit court judges, his name was Fahy, who was one of Jackson’s assistants and they had heard about the work we were doing with IG Farben and they were thinking of possibly indicting Schmitz who was the chief man at Farben. He came and he wanted to be sure he talked to me and Colonel Boorstine, who was my boss, that I didn’t brow-beat [the Farben people], that they understood their rights. I told him we took every possible protection and he seemed satisfied with that. Then I don’t know what happened. He went back. We wrote up the report on Farben and at that time my new son – my first son – was born while I was abroad. They agreed that I could come home with the report. Benstein and I appeared before the Kilgore Committee and presented the report on Farben. Then I returned to work at the Treasury Department and one of the cases they assigned to me was a case involving the Bausch Corporation. The Bausch Corporation in Germany had a subsidiary here – American Bausch.
Is that still in existence?
Yes. What had happened was that Stockholm & Skilderbight, which was owned by the Wallenberg family including the .. I don’t know if he had an interest in it… but the one that’s known for Hungary, helping the Jews in Hungary I think it was.
Raoul Wallenberg?
Yeah, Raoul Wallenberg. But it was that family and we claimed that they were cloaking for the Germans. They were represented by John Foster Dulles’ law firm, and there was – this was before I came back – and there was an interrogation. They were interrogated at the Treasury Department. The fellow who did the interrogation just did a wonderful job. But then Morgenthau was ousted by Truman and [Truman] brought in Vincent and Vincent sent a letter to Henry White saying he had received a letter from the Dulles firm indicating that the Treasury Department had been very rude to the Wallenbergs, very strongly condemning the idea which wasn’t true. He wanted an answer so he could answer. I drafted the response to the Dulles letter. In the meantime I studied all the files on Bausch and I became very familiar with what happened. The Bausch shares had been vested by the alien property custodian and a majority of the Bausch shares had been vested here, notwithstanding the claim that the Swedes owned it.
The Swedes brought an action through Dulles’ law firm to recover those shares. The Justice Department asked that I be transferred from the Treasury Department to work on that case. I was transferred.
Was that still in 1946?
That was in 1946. From 1946 to 1951 I was with the Alien Property Custodian, Department of Justice.
How many languages do you speak?
I know a little German. I’m not a linguist. My Yiddish – it doesn’t help you really. I took German in college but unfortunately.
How did you converse with [von Schnitzler]?
He spoke everything. I should have told you that his wife, who was a countess, would come to the building where I interrogated him and I let her sit around. And one day he came in – I could tell she was furious – and I asked him what happened. He blanched and he did not want to talk about it. Then he told me that apparently the GIs had found in his office his correspondence and they gave it to her and apparently he had some love affairs and she was furious with him. Here he was facing war crimes… I should have told you that the Farben people were tried and they asked me to go back to Nuremberg to try the case but I did not go, for various reasons, some of them personal. The Justice Department took the position that I shouldn’t go, that I was working on some important things here, but I did have personal reasons for not going. I heard that…I received a message to go over to the Pentagon. There was a message from the people who were doing the trial and they were saying that it might be necessary to call me as a witness that I did not abuse von Schnitzler and trying to find out if I would go. Because they wanted to use the interrogation because it was so good. Apparently the German lawyers were claiming that I abused him and that’s why he told me… but apparently when they asked him, I heard, he said to them that I treated him very nicely, which was true. Not that I respected him.
From 1946 to 1951 I was working for the Justice Department on this case and the case was ultimately settled and satisfactorily. It aroused in me a strong feeling that the activities of the attorneys should not be protected by the attorney-client privilege, and I was hoping that someday I would get back to that but I’ve been very busy. Particularly the activity of the Dulles law firm and I’m sure of other law firms.
In 1951 I had a brother who was two or three years older than me who had been a government lawyer and had gone into private practice and he called me and told me that they had started on cases involving Indian tribes. This was 1951. He asked me if I would be interested in leaving the Department of Justice. I was unhappy with some of the things that the Truman Administration was doing – the loyalty oath thing, the activity of changeover with respect of what should be done with Germany, and I decided to resign from the Department of Justice and enter into private practice representing the Indians.
Strangely we had as our clients many of the American Indian tribes. It took nine years before we got our first recovery. We had a very successful practice and we finished all of our claims except one… I mean we won all of our claims except one. I would say that there were hundreds of millions of dollars that we won and the Indians recovered. There was a question as to whether we should continue in practice - we had finished the claims work for the Indians. There was a young lawyer who was doing racial discrimination work. I had decided to join him and that’s what I did, went into racial discrimination work and that’s what I’ve been doing.
Were you doing Indian claims work until about ten years ago?
Until about ten years ago on Indian claims. And as I said, we finished all that work except one that we lost – we took it up to the Supreme Court and lost it. It involved the imprisonment of the entire Chiricahua Cherokee tribe. They’d been anxious and talked to us about trying to get the claim reconsidered. We were looking for the right time to it – my brother had died – we were just retained by the tribes and we’re going to do that.
Did you represent the tribes in Maine or New England?
No. That’s a wonderful history. We represented the tribes going from Omaha, Nebraska west. It’s a long list of tribes and it was a wonderful experience. We work with the anthropologists. It was a fascinating legal experience because we were valuing all kinds of lands, resources… it was a wonderful experience. We lost this claim on technical grounds and we felt very strongly about it and we’re hoping we can get Congress to do something about it now. That brings me up to my legal career.
What law school did you attend?
I went to Columbia Law School and I was a terrible student. I entered City College of New York, I guess I was about fifteen or sixteen at the time – not that I was bright. My father had a window-cleaning route and he passed away. So I started to take care of his route. I’d get up at four o’clock in the morning.
Where was this?
In the Bronx. I enjoyed it. It was a physical exercise. The only reason that I was a little unhappy about it was I like to play basketball and I wanted to play for CCNY but you have to practice five days a week and I was unable to attend the practices because of the window-cleaning route. So I was playing for an 82nd Street YMCA team. But in my senior year Matt Homer, who was our coach – I don’t know if the name means anything to you but he was the greatest basketball player around at that time. We worked out some way that I could play for the college and we won all our games except the last one. We played for the championship of the country. We lost 24-18. One thing that did come out of it was that I was elected to the Hall of Fame at City College, even though I only played there one year. So it was a wonderful experience but it affected my law school work and I can say I didn’t understand when they were talking about billing notes or bills and notes, or things of that nature, it had no meaning to me. But I did get interested in the labor law course. I can recall the class was divided – we had quite a few City College students who were on the radical side and we also had some Ivy League students who were just the opposite. I was sitting next to a young lady- I can’t remember her name but she was a very hard worker – she came from Wellesley. I was unable to read the cases, so before the classes she’d tell me what the cases were about. One day, the professor knew with each side of the class he could get either point of view – he did it wonderfully – the automobile workers had just gone on strike in the factories and that was the issue. The issue was whether they should issue an injunction. It was very hotly debated and he called on this Wellesley young lady. She was very sympathetic to the labor position, but she ended up saying “but if the maid sits down in your own house, I don’t know how I’d feel about that.”
So I was lucky. I think that I’m very grateful to Gardiner for what he did. I must say that I was very disappointed when he sent me to this other place to work. I wanted to spend the whole time with him in the Army.
Why do you think he decided that?
I don’t know whether he thought I wouldn’t have any role in the French Joint Rearmament Committee. I’m just not sure but I just don’t know. I do know that I spent a great deal of time with him and he knew how I felt about things. I had a pretty good idea how he felt about things and at some point he was calling me “comrade.” But he wanted to help me and he knew how I felt about him. I just don’t know.
When did you complete law school?
1938.
Did you go to the Treasury Department straight out of law school?
I went to a private firm in New York. I didn’t want to go into private practice at that point – it seemed like taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another. So when Treasury hired me, particularly because of my law school record, I was very happy.
When did you go to Treasury?
About ’40.
Were you drafted?
Yes.
When were you drafted?
1942, I would say May of ’42.
So you had a law degree, they drafted you and determined in what branch you’d serve?
Yes. I was sent to one airfield after another in the states. I was in Carolina. I was in Mississippi. And very little training.
This was the U.S. Army Air Corps?
Yes, that’s right. I can’t remember even shooting a gun at that time. I had been a little bit in ROTC in City College but then I got an exemption. I was not an ROTC man. I was in the Army three months and I was transferred overseas to England. I went over on the Queen Mary.
It had been converted as a troop carrier by that time?
Yes.
And that was in July or August?
Did I say I got into the Army in May? No, I think it was February and then either May – I went to England. I’m not sure which of those times is right. I’m not sure.
What was it like traveling on the Queen Mary?
Well, you know, they were getting excited. They were seeing submarines all over the place.
Were you escorted by U.S. or Canadian ships?
I don’t know. I know there were a lot of ships going there. I don’t know what kind they were. A lot of rumors.
What kind of rumors?
That the German submarines were coming out, but I didn’t see any. And we got down – I was stationed in Kew Gardens [in London]. There was a big barracks and we must have had – it was full of GIs, just full of, it seemed to me like thousands. We were on cots. They didn’t know what to do with us, I don’t think. I think they were making some plans on what they were going to do with us.
But I do know that was my first encounter with Gardiner. They sent us to London. He gave us our orientation lecture.
What kind of orientation lecture?
About how we should behave with the British. It was that kind of a talk – that we now Allies.
Do you recall much of that lecture?
I recall that this was a man who could be a great orator if he wanted to be a great orator. When later I learned that he was from Harvard – he had that Harvard accent – but there was mixture not only of the Harvard accent but the British accent he picked up. He spoke English like we didn’t talk it in the Bronx you know. And I was very much impressed with him and also with his physique and manner.
That’s when he was with Intelligence of the Eighth Air Force?
That’s right.
Had you been informed at that time that you were going to be assigned to the Eighth Air Force?
I was in the Eighth Air Force. When I went to England, that’s when I knew I was in the Eighth Air Force. I was very anxious to contribute what I could to win this war and we were laying around in the barracks. What we would do is, we had a poster and they would list those who would have to do KP and this and that. One day I found myself on KP so I would do KP. The next day I was on KP again. I think they put me on KP for five days in a row. Everybody thought – we had thousands and thousands – and they thought they were picking on me maybe because I was Jewish or what. But I decided that doing KP was just as important.
The First Sergeant came up to me and said, “I gave you KP for five days. Why didn’t you complain?” And I said, “They told me not to complain.” He said, “I have a job for you.” And I looked at him and he said, “will you take it?” I said, “they told me never to volunteer. What’s the job?” He said, “I want you to take my word for it and I want you to take it, but I don’t want to tell you what it is.” And I looked at him and I said okay. He took me to a broom closet, he gave me the broom and he said, “your job will be to sweep the corridor every morning and then that’ll be your job.” I said, “how long do you think it’ll take me to sweep this corridor?” He said, “I think you could do it in a few hours.” I said, “Can I try it now?” He said yes and I swept it in two hours and finished. So that was my job. I did it for about a month.
One day I was lying in my cot at night and one of the fellows I had come up with and liked very much who slept in the next cot over from me – he would say “Abe, don’t fuck up.” And we were lying there and all of a sudden three officers came to me that night and they shouted my name. And he immediately said I fucked up. I didn’t know what he was talking about and I came over to them and I saluted. They asked me what my name was and then they started to ask me some questions which led me to believe they’d looked at my record. They knew I’d gone to law school and City College. They said to report to Colonel Gardiner in the morning and told me where he was. At the time I didn’t know it was Colonel Gardiner who’d given us the orientation lecture.
So the next morning I went and reported in London to Colonel Gardiner and that was my first time. He sat me down. I think he offered me a drink. I’m not sure. I know he was very friendly. He told me he was the Intelligence Officer for the Eighth Air Force and he wanted me to be his clerk. I guess I wasn’t too enthusiastic. He looked at me and said, “you don’t seem to be too happy about that.” I said, “well what would I be doing?” He looked at me and said, “I can’t tell you now,” or something like that. He said “what kind of a job do you have?” I told him “I have a two-hour sweeping job and then I’m finished.” He started to laugh and said “look, I can’t have a private working for me. I’m going to make you a sergeant.” I said, “Colonel, I haven’t even shot a gun in the Army, how can I tell anyone else what to do, you know?” He said, “I see I’m going to have trouble. I’ll make you a corporal.” And he gave me a piece of paper – I think I still have it – recommending that I be made a corporal. He said “give this to your sergeant and I don’t want you to sweep the floors anymore. You’ll be going with me. I can’t tell you where, but you’re going with me.”
I said okay and when I went back and asked myself what am I going to do? What does he want me to do? The first sergeant came up to me and asked me what happened. I said nothing happened and I didn’t tell him to make me a corporal or anything. One day I’m sweeping the floor and there’s Colonel Gardiner. He said, “didn’t I tell you not to do that?” And I looked at him and started laughing.
He told me to go with him and he took me right into the First Sergeant and said “make him a corporal right away.” So they cut the cloth and made me a corporal and then he said, “don’t sweep the floors anymore. In a few days we’ll be leaving.”
Do you remember what month this was?
Yes. It was October. One day they packed me up – I was the only one – they sent me by train someplace and I know that there were more boats than I’d ever seen in my life. There was a big armada and he told me that he was going to be on – he gave me the name of the boat he was going to be on – which was not the boat I was on. I then found out we were going to go to North Africa for the invasion of North Africa, which was on November 8.
You found that out after you left?
Yeah, we found out once we were on the boat.
What kind of ship was it?
It was a transport and the food was terrible. The conditions were terrible. We were changing sleeping down on the bottom and then on deck. It was a fascinating boat ride because there were so many boats around. We went through the Straights of Gibraltar then we went back and forth. We came in at Arzew.
This is going to be hard for you to believe but what I’m telling you is what happened.
This is November 8?
November 8.
Was this in the middle of the night?
I think it was early in the morning. It was just like a regular invasion. We jumped into landing boats. You had your barracks bag, you had your rifle..
How many people per boat?
In the boat? Very few. But they were all over the place. I was so anxious to dump my barracks bag and stay with my rifle that I didn’t know what was ahead.
As you were landing, was there gunfire from the shore?
I didn’t hear any, but everybody said there was gunfire. I heard people talk about the invasion four days later and they told a different story than I was aware of. I’m not saying they were wrong, but I didn’t.
What were the conditions? Would the ship be out a couple of miles?
Yes, that’s right and the landing craft came in. I jumped off and I immediately start running as the landing boats were coming in and people were coming off, I would ask them what boat they came in on. I can’t remember the name of the boat. As I was running I saw somebody standing and I tapped him on the shoulder and – this is going to be a hard one to believe – but it was General Patton. And he turned to me – I didn’t know who he was at that time. I looked at him and I said, “Pardon me.” I started to run. He didn’t look like a man I wanted to talk with. And I found Gardiner’s boat.
As I remember it, he was with Colonel Manning. My recollection of what happened does not coincide with what he wrote. I’m not saying he’s wrong.
He told me that we were going to take the convoy of trucks and – I don’t recall that I begged to go with him – I just assumed that I was going with him and he was in the motorcycle. Then the convoy of trucks and then I was in a jeep. There was a driver. We would circle the convoy.
Was he in command of the convoy?
He was in command of the convoy.
What was in the convoy?
Trucks. We were taking fuel and gas to Tafaraoui Airfield.
Was that a joint British-U.S. airbase?
No. There were British there when we got there. I’ll tell you why I know that. There was Spitfires there.
How long did it take to get there?
It was a couple of hours we were on the road. I was just circling and we got there safely.
There were no signs of Germans?
No, I didn’t see any and you know. [Gardiner] mentions some of that, but all I know is that when we got there I noticed a Spitfire getting ready to go off. I ran over to the pilot and asked if he needed fuel and that we’d just brought fuel. He said to me, “I have no time to wait.” And he went off. It was the first indication to me in the Army what war was like – to me, anyway.
Then Colonel Gardiner took me over and introduced me to General Doolittle who was there.
What was your impression of Doolittle?
Just a wonderful, warm person. I was not one to gush too much, but he took my hand and shook it and very friendly. I think Gardiner said something like I was his bodyguard or something like that. It was the first time I felt like I was in the Army.
You were still a corporal at this time?
I was a corporal at this time. I can’t remember when I became a sergeant. We were stationed somewhere – I can’t remember where we were stationed – and I was in the enlisted mens’ barracks and he was in the officers’ barracks…
Was this in a village or out in the field?
It was out in the field. He came to the place where I was and he would send for me at night and I would come down and he said “get in the jeep. I can’t stand those officers.” We rode around. We drank almost every place we went. We were drinking so much wine, it was not my favorite drink.
Was it all French wine?
All French, yes.
Where would you go?
To smaller villages. And that’s where he did a lot of talking and as I remember it, one of the things he was unhappy about was that one of his sons was an American Firster. Do you know who that was?
Yes – actually, I can’t remember if it was Tom or Tudor [author’s note: both Tom and Tudor would serve in WW2].
And he just couldn’t understand – you know, your country’s at war and such. There’s no question that he knew how I felt and I think that, you know he was older, and much more experienced than I was. I think to the extent he could, he talked about how he felt.
Why didn’t he like the other officers?
I just don’t know. I would say he didn’t find their conversation interesting. I just don’t know enough about how he felt. He had a certain reserve about him. He was a commanding officer, this fellow, there’s no question about it.
Now he mentions somewhere that I was happy because some young Spaniards came to the outfit and I was feeding them.
Were they members of the French Foreign Legion?
That’s the group, yes.
But they were Spanish, correct?
They were Spanish. The story they gave me was that they had fought with the Loyalists in Spain against Franco and somehow I guess they got it – what they wanted to do was get to DeGaulle. Our agreement with the French was that they would go to Darlan. I took them through our mess and fed them. I had no way of corroborating their story.
How did you come across them?
They came over – a colonel brought them down from the hills and was taking them to Gardiner. Gardiner wasn’t there so they brought them to me. I still have pictures of them. They were wonderful young kids. Now they could have been fascist but I just don’t know.
How did you communicate with them?
When they said “Franco” I knew what they were saying, or things like that. I think after that [Gardiner] started to call me “comrade.” I didn’t mind. I would say, with all the experience I’ve had, this was the man I admired tremendously, notwithstanding his politics.
What did you admire most about him?
Well I’d have to say – I heard a lot of talk, and things like that – my only thoughts was that we had to win this war, and there was no question that that was what his purpose was. This was a guy I would want to serve under and in that sense I loved him. I loved what he stood for.
What were the reactions of some of the other NCOs? Did they have any impressions of Gardiner?
No. I never talked to anybody about Gardiner. Even when I got back, you know on my seventieth birthday, Gloria (Mr. Weissbrodt’s wife) wrote to some of the people and one was with the North African Economic Board. He described how Gardiner came and wanted me to go to where he said I was going to get him killed. I did want to be his bodyguard, there’s no question about it. I would have been a good one for him. It didn’t turn out that way.
After I left – I didn’t ask him “why didn’t you let me go with you” with the French Rearmament Committee – I was stationed in Palermo and I was working investigating a bank in Palermo. Someone told me that someone was there to see me. It was Gardiner. He had just come back from his trip to Badoglio and he didn’t say a word about it. All he said was he wanted to make sure I was all right and that I was content with what I was doing, and things like that. I assured him that I was working and things like that. I did not ask him “why don’t you let me go with you,” I just didn’t do that. He left. That’s the last I saw him.
The Stars & Stripes was there and there I read what he had done. Now whether he left the Stars & Stripes or what, but it was the story of the Badoglio experience. I said, “boy would I have loved to have been with him.” But that was the last I saw of him. Whether he kept up with what I was doing, I don’t know.
After that, when he was with Incorporated Investors, I did receive some notes from him saying that he would never forget the ride to Tafaraoui. They were friendly notes, but I must say I was so busy with what I was doing…Anybody who knows me, knows that I say that Colonel Gardiner is the greatest man I ever met in my life. And that’s the way I feel about him.
That’s about it, I guess.
There were some conditions that we discussed – conditions under which he earned the Silver Star. Was that the convoy escort?
That’s the escort of the convoy.
There were no lone Messerschmidts around? Would you say that the air was covered by Allied forces?
I don’t know whether I was not observant. I was really thinking in terms of, you know, attacks from the Nazis or the French. I noticed that he mentions that, but just like they said they were flying around when they came in, I had no observation of it.
Did you have any dealings with the French forces?
The only dealing I recall is that we took some French prisoners back from Tafaraoui. They had been captured, we took them back.
Back to Arzew?
Back to Arzew. When he walked over with one of the French officers and told one of them to get in the jeep, or whatever, the Frenchman said something to him and I noticed that Gardiner’s fist clench and he got pale. Afterwards I said, “what did he say to you?” and he said, “he called me an ‘American dog’.” But he didn’t hit him or anything like that.
There was a great deal of animosity on the part of the French.
Did that seem to subside after the invasion?
Yes. We had very little after the invasion. When I was with the North African Economic Board, we got concerned with some bank transfers that the French were engaged in. I remember writing a little bit of a report on two Frenchmen we felt were involved – a fellow by the name of Bapst and Souvry – what they did involved some illegal transfers of funds and we were concerned about it. But that was the limit of the North African…with the French… then I came became involved in Sicily.
You were both trained as lawyers. When you were together were there any legal topics you discussed?
No. He’d tell me, he had some sense of my background and mostly we talked about him and his family.
I knew that he liked Manning and that Manning did some things for me, but I don’t remember what they were.
If Gardiner was in command of the convoy, what was Colonel Manning’s role?
I think Manning’s experience was with transportation. I think Gardiner just liked him.
Did you ever fly with Gardiner in North Africa?
No.
Okay, I was just curious since he had rated as a pilot the month before the invasion and flew some missions down there.
No, I didn’t fly with him, but I drove around with him a lot in the jeep. Right after the Tafaraoui experience. I’m only sorry that our experience together was so short.
How long was that?
Two months.
I’d like to run some names of places, people, etc. and see if you have any recollections.
The Air Force Liaison Office at One Great Cumberland Court.
No.
The 12th Air Service Command. Was that the command you were under?
Yes. I became part of the 12th Air Service Command when I was stationed at Tolegma Base near Constantine. But I think he was either transferred to the French Rearmament Committee by then. There was a Captain Bonzo. A young lieutenant came in. I don’t have clear recollections of what was happening.
Do you remember a Colonel Gunn?
No.
I think that’s it.
The convoy to Tafaraoui, did you pass through La Senia?
I don’t know anything we passed through. He didn’t show me the map. I know he had a map and I gathered that he had determined what route we would take. Just the way he looked at me or said some things that nothing would happen.
One small point to clarify. Were you in a jeep or in a motorcycle?
No. He said I was in a sidecar. I was in a jeep. I know I wasn’t in a sidecar. He was alone in the motorcycle. Now he talks about other trips and that’s what confuses me because I was positive I went on the first trip with him and I didn’t know of other trips because I was with him quite a bit.
Is there anything else you’d like to add?
No. That’s really the story of my relationship with [Gardiner].
Well, thank you very much.
[End of interview.]